Discussion:
Does a cellphone really ping where you are when it's off?
(too old to reply)
Angelique Begnaud
2014-03-14 05:38:11 UTC
Permalink
This article implies a cell phone "pings" a satellite even when off
such that they can triangulate to you?

Is this really true?

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/14/c_133186090.htm
"It's like when your cellphone is off but it still sends out a little
'I'm here' message to the cellphone network," the official said.
"That's how sometimes they can triangulate your position even though
you're not calling because the phone every so often sends out a
little bleep. That's sort of what this thing was doing."
DevilsPGD
2014-03-14 06:03:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelique Begnaud
This article implies a cell phone "pings" a satellite even when off
such that they can triangulate to you?
Is this really true?
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/14/c_133186090.htm
"It's like when your cellphone is off but it still sends out a little
'I'm here' message to the cellphone network," the official said.
"That's how sometimes they can triangulate your position even though
you're not calling because the phone every so often sends out a
little bleep. That's sort of what this thing was doing."
The "Even though you're not calling" makes me think they misunderstand
the difference between "off" and "standby"

When your phone is off it shouldn't be transmitting at all. Those with
unshielded speakers and TDMA based phones can tell you that their phones
don't, since they'd hear it.

But in standby, the phone does report to the nearest tower on a regular
basis so that the network knows where to route inbound calls, should one
occur.
--
There's your answer, Fishbulb.
Ivan D. Reid
2014-03-14 08:51:51 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 05:38:11 +0000 (UTC), Angelique Begnaud
Post by Angelique Begnaud
This article implies a cell phone "pings" a satellite even when off
No. No satellites are involved.
--
Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration,
Brunel University. Ivan.Reid@[brunel.ac.uk|cern.ch] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".
Evan Platt
2014-03-14 14:03:13 UTC
Permalink
On Fri, 14 Mar 2014 05:38:11 +0000 (UTC), Angelique Begnaud
Post by Angelique Begnaud
This article implies a cell phone "pings" a satellite even when off
such that they can triangulate to you?
Is this really true?
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/world/2014-03/14/c_133186090.htm
"It's like when your cellphone is off but it still sends out a little
'I'm here' message to the cellphone network," the official said.
"That's how sometimes they can triangulate your position even though
you're not calling because the phone every so often sends out a
little bleep. That's sort of what this thing was doing."
The only place that article talked about satellites was talking about
the plane communicating with satellites.

And no, phones don't transmit when they're off.
--
To reply via e-mail, remove The Obvious and .invalid from my e-mail address.
nospam
2014-03-14 15:26:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelique Begnaud
This article implies a cell phone "pings" a satellite even when off
such that they can triangulate to you?
cellphones do not use satellites at all nor do they communicate with
the cellular network when off. off means off. end of story.

do not confuse off with standby. a phone in standby is connected to the
cellular network and can receive a call at any time (unless it moves
out of the cellular coverage area).
Post by Angelique Begnaud
Is this really true?
no.
NotMe
2014-03-14 16:42:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by Angelique Begnaud
This article implies a cell phone "pings" a satellite even when off
such that they can triangulate to you?
cellphones do not use satellites at all nor do they communicate with
the cellular network when off. off means off. end of story.
do not confuse off with standby. a phone in standby is connected to the
cellular network and can receive a call at any time (unless it moves
out of the cellular coverage area).
Post by Angelique Begnaud
Is this really true?
no.
Current phones use GPS satellites to passively determine position.

A somewhat phone and carrier specific as there are some phones that can be
activated when in the 'off' state by the carrier.

The option/function goes back before smart phones came to the market.
Anthony R. Gold
2014-03-14 18:29:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
Post by Angelique Begnaud
This article implies a cell phone "pings" a satellite even when off
such that they can triangulate to you?
cellphones do not use satellites at all nor do they communicate with
the cellular network when off. off means off. end of story.
do not confuse off with standby. a phone in standby is connected to the
cellular network and can receive a call at any time (unless it moves
out of the cellular coverage area).
Post by Angelique Begnaud
Is this really true?
no.
Current phones use GPS satellites to passively determine position.
A somewhat phone and carrier specific as there are some phones that can be
activated when in the 'off' state by the carrier.
The option/function goes back before smart phones came to the market.
Yes, conspiracy theories do pre-date mobile phones.
NotMe
2014-03-14 19:04:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony R. Gold
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
Post by Angelique Begnaud
This article implies a cell phone "pings" a satellite even when off
such that they can triangulate to you?
cellphones do not use satellites at all nor do they communicate with
the cellular network when off. off means off. end of story.
do not confuse off with standby. a phone in standby is connected to the
cellular network and can receive a call at any time (unless it moves
out of the cellular coverage area).
Post by Angelique Begnaud
Is this really true?
no.
Current phones use GPS satellites to passively determine position.
A somewhat phone and carrier specific as there are some phones that can be
activated when in the 'off' state by the carrier.
The option/function goes back before smart phones came to the market.
Yes, conspiracy theories do pre-date mobile phones.
Not in this instance. I originated several designs that did just that.
For clarification the original requirement was for updating the software and
PRN function but the practical result was the ability to remotely turn on
and track the phone.

Short of removing the batter (not easily accomplished on some phones or
placing the phone in an RF protected package there is no way to prevent the
tracking.
nospam
2014-03-14 21:31:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by NotMe
Post by Anthony R. Gold
Post by NotMe
A somewhat phone and carrier specific as there are some phones that can
be activated when in the 'off' state by the carrier.
The option/function goes back before smart phones came to the market.
Yes, conspiracy theories do pre-date mobile phones.
Not in this instance. I originated several designs that did just that.
For clarification the original requirement was for updating the software and
PRN function but the practical result was the ability to remotely turn on
and track the phone.
bullshit.

a phone would need custom software, and the user would need to be the
target of an investigation or the victim of a hacker for such software
to be installed (and somehow without their knowing it).

an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Post by NotMe
Short of removing the batter (not easily accomplished on some phones or
placing the phone in an RF protected package there is no way to prevent the
tracking.
bullshit.
Andy Burns
2014-03-15 07:32:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
a phone would need custom software, and the user would need to be the
target of an investigation or the victim of a hacker for such software
to be installed (and somehow without their knowing it).
and the user would probably notice the usual interference from the
notionally switched off mobile to nearby radios, landline phones etc as
it made the "snitch" connections.
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
IAWTP.
nospam
2014-03-15 09:21:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Andy Burns
Post by nospam
a phone would need custom software, and the user would need to be the
target of an investigation or the victim of a hacker for such software
to be installed (and somehow without their knowing it).
and the user would probably notice the usual interference from the
notionally switched off mobile to nearby radios, landline phones etc as
it made the "snitch" connections.
that interference only happens if it's a gsm/tdma phone.

3g, aka hspa (or its variants), is cdma based and lte is based on cdma,
neither of which cause interference.

however, the person would notice the battery draining faster than
expected, especially if the phone was transmitting data somewhere and
certainly if it was using a gps, as well as possible display
illumination.

an app that uses the gps can drain the battery within a couple of
hours. that would definitely be noticed.
Post by Andy Burns
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
IAWTP.
NotMe
2014-03-16 00:08:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by Anthony R. Gold
Post by NotMe
A somewhat phone and carrier specific as there are some phones that
can be activated when in the 'off' state by the carrier.
The option/function goes back before smart phones came to the market.
Yes, conspiracy theories do pre-date mobile phones.
Not in this instance. I originated several designs that did just that.
For clarification the original requirement was for updating the software
and PRN function but the practical result was the ability to remotely
turn on
and track the phone.
bullshit.
a phone would need custom software, and the user would need to be the
target of an investigation or the victim of a hacker for such software
to be installed (and somehow without their knowing it).
Carries have long required special functions and software as part of their
purchase process.

As mentioned the function was considered a design requirement and became a
back door.
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Short of removing the battery (not easily accomplished on some phones or
placing the phone in an RF protected package there is no way to prevent
the tracking.
bullshit.
And you've designed how many phones?
Anthony R. Gold
2014-03-16 14:21:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by Anthony R. Gold
Post by NotMe
A somewhat phone and carrier specific as there are some phones that
can be activated when in the 'off' state by the carrier.
The option/function goes back before smart phones came to the market.
Yes, conspiracy theories do pre-date mobile phones.
Not in this instance. I originated several designs that did just that.
For clarification the original requirement was for updating the software
and PRN function but the practical result was the ability to remotely
turn on
and track the phone.
bullshit.
a phone would need custom software, and the user would need to be the
target of an investigation or the victim of a hacker for such software
to be installed (and somehow without their knowing it).
Carries have long required special functions and software as part of their
purchase process.
As mentioned the function was considered a design requirement and became a
back door.
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Short of removing the battery (not easily accomplished on some phones or
placing the phone in an RF protected package there is no way to prevent
the tracking.
bullshit.
And you've designed how many phones?
The NSA knows what you have for dinner, but before commenting you need to
qualify by saying for how many microwave ovens you developed the firmware.
Mike Yetto
2014-03-16 14:49:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony R. Gold
The NSA knows what you have for dinner, but before commenting you need to
qualify by saying for how many microwave ovens you developed the firmware.
It must be terrible living with such paranoia.

Mike "do you suffer from agoraphobia as well?" Yetto
--
"Science . . . looks skeptically at all claims to knowledge, old
and new. It teaches not blind obedience to those in authority but
to vigorous debate, and in many respects that's the secret of its
success."
- Carl Sagan
NotMe
2014-03-17 16:34:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anthony R. Gold
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by Anthony R. Gold
Post by NotMe
A somewhat phone and carrier specific as there are some phones that
can be activated when in the 'off' state by the carrier.
The option/function goes back before smart phones came to the market.
Yes, conspiracy theories do pre-date mobile phones.
Not in this instance. I originated several designs that did just that.
For clarification the original requirement was for updating the software
and PRN function but the practical result was the ability to remotely
turn on
and track the phone.
bullshit.
a phone would need custom software, and the user would need to be the
target of an investigation or the victim of a hacker for such software
to be installed (and somehow without their knowing it).
Carries have long required special functions and software as part of their
purchase process.
As mentioned the function was considered a design requirement and became a
back door.
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Short of removing the battery (not easily accomplished on some phones or
placing the phone in an RF protected package there is no way to prevent
the tracking.
bullshit.
And you've designed how many phones?
The NSA knows what you have for dinner, but before commenting you need to
qualify by saying for how many microwave ovens you developed the firmware.
Firmware for microwaves has been around for decades ... it's called a
CLOCK/TIMER
nospam
2014-03-16 23:26:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
a phone would need custom software, and the user would need to be the
target of an investigation or the victim of a hacker for such software
to be installed (and somehow without their knowing it).
Carries have long required special functions and software as part of their
purchase process.
not to turn phones on remotely, they aren't.

if the ability was there, it would have been found and exploited by
hackers long ago. and it hasn't.

it's nothing more than conspiracy theories.
Post by NotMe
As mentioned the function was considered a design requirement and became a
back door.
bullshit.
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
even the nsa can't turn on a phone remotely unless they specifically
modify the phone and somehow get you to use it.
danny burstein
2014-03-17 02:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
even the nsa can't turn on a phone remotely unless they specifically
modify the phone and somehow get you to use it.
And you really, really are ready to believe that, for example,
a country like China wouldn't mandate this capability in
all phones sold in that country?
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
***@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
nospam
2014-03-17 02:26:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by danny burstein
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
even the nsa can't turn on a phone remotely unless they specifically
modify the phone and somehow get you to use it.
And you really, really are ready to believe that, for example,
a country like China wouldn't mandate this capability in
all phones sold in that country?
they aren't forcing it on iphones and i am not aware of android phones
being forced to have a remote enable capability.

however, monitoring what is sent/received is easily done, no matter
where anyone is. the solution to that is vpn.
danny burstein
2014-03-17 02:34:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by danny burstein
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
even the nsa can't turn on a phone remotely unless they specifically
modify the phone and somehow get you to use it.
And you really, really are ready to believe that, for example,
a country like China wouldn't mandate this capability in
all phones sold in that country?
they aren't forcing it on iphones and i am not aware of android phones
being forced to have a remote enable capability.
And you're sure that Apple, Google, and China in general would
be telling you the truth about all this?

I _can_ tell you, based on personal testing, that standard
cell phones off the shelf in the US (at least the one I
tested) do maintain some "live" circuitry in background
even when turned off [a]. In retrospect I should probably
have also tried the same test removing the battery...

[a] I visited Carlsbad Caverns, a series of deep
underground caves. I turned my Nokia basic phone
(camera but otherwise "dumb") off upstairs.

When I was in the cave I turned it on. It reported
no signal... but did have the correct time.

- so if there's enough electricity still floating
around to keep the clock going, how hard it would
it be to keep a low current "wake up if you hear
a turn-on signal" going, especially if it only
"listens" every ten seconds for a quarter second?
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
***@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
nospam
2014-03-17 02:54:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by danny burstein
Post by nospam
Post by danny burstein
And you really, really are ready to believe that, for example,
a country like China wouldn't mandate this capability in
all phones sold in that country?
they aren't forcing it on iphones and i am not aware of android phones
being forced to have a remote enable capability.
And you're sure that Apple, Google, and China in general would
be telling you the truth about all this?
apple releases one firmware version per model of the iphone regardless
of country, so either every single iphone can do it or none of them
can. that doesn't sound very likely at all.

given the level of hacking that the iphone dev team does to find
exploits to jailbreak, i'm *very* sure that they would have noticed
that capability. they have completely dissected the entire boot process
and how to get past the codesigning and other checks.

there's actually an hour long video somewhere on the 'net of the iphone
dev team discussing the gory details of what goes on. i don't have the
bookmark handy and this isn't an iphone group anyway.

with android, each manufacturer can alter the base code, so there's a
possibility for chinese devices to have something in it, but it's
almost certain to not be in mainstream android, such as samsung, nexus,
htc, motorola, etc. phone. you'd think *someone* would have noticed it.
Post by danny burstein
I _can_ tell you, based on personal testing, that standard
cell phones off the shelf in the US (at least the one I
tested) do maintain some "live" circuitry in background
even when turned off [a]. In retrospect I should probably
have also tried the same test removing the battery...
all it does is look for a button press to turn it on or charger attach
to monitor battery recharging so the battery doesn't explode due to
improper charging.
Post by danny burstein
[a] I visited Carlsbad Caverns, a series of deep
underground caves. I turned my Nokia basic phone
(camera but otherwise "dumb") off upstairs.
When I was in the cave I turned it on. It reported
no signal... but did have the correct time.
- so if there's enough electricity still floating
around to keep the clock going, how hard it would
it be to keep a low current "wake up if you hear
a turn-on signal" going, especially if it only
"listens" every ten seconds for a quarter second?
the hard part is doing it without the user noticing anything.

turning on the radio would drain the battery. users notice that.

turning on the radio to send information back to wherever really drains
the battery. users would definitely notice that.

this is also something that is easily tested. either look for the
radios to be powered on or for rf transmissions.
tlvp
2014-03-25 05:13:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by danny burstein
[a] I visited Carlsbad Caverns, a series of deep
underground caves. I turned my Nokia basic phone
(camera but otherwise "dumb") off upstairs.
When I was in the cave I turned it on. It reported
no signal... but did have the correct time.
Hmmph! I was away for two weeks, and my car, in the driveway, had its
ignition off the entire time. When, upon my return, I next entered my car
and turned the ignition key to on in the ignition switch, the dashboard
clock reported the correct time.

Well, surprise: even when turned off, cell phones, like automobiles, still
feed their clock circuits enough juice that they display the correct time,
give or take a smidgeon, once fully powered up again.

Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
danny burstein
2014-03-25 05:24:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by tlvp
Hmmph! I was away for two weeks, and my car, in the driveway, had its
ignition off the entire time. When, upon my return, I next entered my car
and turned the ignition key to on in the ignition switch, the dashboard
clock reported the correct time.
well, sure. You parked at 19:15 anf you got back
in at 07:20....
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
***@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
NotMe
2014-03-17 04:03:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by danny burstein
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
even the nsa can't turn on a phone remotely unless they specifically
modify the phone and somehow get you to use it.
And you really, really are ready to believe that, for example,
a country like China wouldn't mandate this capability in
all phones sold in that country?
they aren't forcing it on iphones and i am not aware of android phones
being forced to have a remote enable capability.
Again you know this how?
Post by nospam
however, monitoring what is sent/received is easily done, no matter
where anyone is. the solution to that is vpn.
Its a small hill to climb to make the software either transmit the data in
the clear or using a hidden/private code to mask the transmission. You
might catch the transmission using spectrum analyzer but you would have to
be patient and quick. With so much other on and off channel RF floating
around good luck.
nospam
2014-03-17 12:52:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
Post by danny burstein
And you really, really are ready to believe that, for example,
a country like China wouldn't mandate this capability in
all phones sold in that country?
they aren't forcing it on iphones and i am not aware of android phones
being forced to have a remote enable capability.
Again you know this how?
i know it's not on iphones for reasons i explained.

i said it *could* be possible on android, but if it was done, why
haven't any of the android hackers found it?
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
however, monitoring what is sent/received is easily done, no matter
where anyone is. the solution to that is vpn.
Its a small hill to climb to make the software either transmit the data in
the clear or using a hidden/private code to mask the transmission. You
might catch the transmission using spectrum analyzer but you would have to
be patient and quick. With so much other on and off channel RF floating
around good luck.
i'm talking about monitoring internet data between an app and the other
end.

unless you have vpn, they know what you're doing. they may not know the
contents of encrypted data to say, a bank, but they know you contacted
the bank.
NotMe
2014-03-17 17:16:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
Post by danny burstein
And you really, really are ready to believe that, for example,
a country like China wouldn't mandate this capability in
all phones sold in that country?
they aren't forcing it on iphones and i am not aware of android phones
being forced to have a remote enable capability.
Again you know this how?
i know it's not on phones for reasons i explained.
Again unless you have direct access to the source code in the phone OS there
is no way to know of, or detect, all nefarious/sleeper software.
i said it *could* be possible on android, but if it was done, why
haven't any of the android hackers found it?
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
however, monitoring what is sent/received is easily done, no matter
where anyone is. the solution to that is vpn.
Its a small hill to climb to make the software either transmit the data in
the clear or using a hidden/private code to mask the transmission. You
might catch the transmission using spectrum analyzer but you would have to
be patient and quick. With so much other on and off channel RF floating
around good luck.
i'm talking about monitoring internet data between an app and the other
end.
And you assume the data is sent via the internet which may be the case as
that is an option The reality is there are any number of other ways to
accomplish the task most would be in band but nothing would prevent the
transmission from being accomplished out of band.
unless you have vpn, they know what you're doing. they may not know the
contents of encrypted data to say, a bank, but they know you contacted
the bank.
Like I said the use of vpn may give the user some protection for data he
knowingly generated but does nothing to prevent the do-bad (human or
software) from sending the data in the clear or via a second unknown
channel/vpn.

When it comes to security you can build a fence as high as you want all the
do bad need do is jump 1 inch higher to clear the fence and he gets to pick
the place, time and method.

As Snowden has shown 'stuff' happens that even the boss knows nothing about.
Phone software I devolped often had tech stuff I felt was useful but
management did not want to spend time on that save us hours of unnecessary
work in supporting the products.
Bruce Sinclair
2014-03-18 00:20:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by danny burstein
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
even the nsa can't turn on a phone remotely unless they specifically
modify the phone and somehow get you to use it.
And you really, really are ready to believe that, for example,
a country like China wouldn't mandate this capability in
all phones sold in that country?
IIRC, there was an australian (?) contract for computer gear that was cancelled
a year or so back because of security concerns with the Hawei (?) equipment ?

Built in evil is certainly something we should be aware of ... even if it's
only the possibility of it. :)
NotMe
2014-03-17 03:58:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
a phone would need custom software, and the user would need to be the
target of an investigation or the victim of a hacker for such software
to be installed (and somehow without their knowing it).
Carries have long required special functions and software as part of their
purchase process.
not to turn phones on remotely, they aren't.
if the ability was there, it would have been found and exploited by
hackers long ago. and it hasn't.
And you know that the 'feature' hasen't been exploited?
Post by nospam
it's nothing more than conspiracy theories.
Post by NotMe
As mentioned the function was considered a design requirement and became a
back door.
bullshit.
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
even the nsa can't turn on a phone remotely unless they specifically
modify the phone and somehow get you to use it.
Like I said some carriers had a requirement for the function as a system
feature/function. It *was* developed and put into service. There were (as
in other instances) unintended results that have been exploited by the
various government TLA (three letter acronyms) agencies.

And no it's not a conspiracy as I worked on the equipment/software
development before I retired.
nospam
2014-03-17 12:52:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by NotMe
Like I said some carriers had a requirement for the function as a system
feature/function. It *was* developed and put into service. There were (as
in other instances) unintended results that have been exploited by the
various government TLA (three letter acronyms) agencies.
And no it's not a conspiracy as I worked on the equipment/software
development before I retired.
which devices and what carriers?
NotMe
2014-03-17 17:18:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Like I said some carriers had a requirement for the function as a system
feature/function. It *was* developed and put into service. There were (as
in other instances) unintended results that have been exploited by the
various government TLA (three letter acronyms) agencies.
And no it's not a conspiracy as I worked on the equipment/software
development before I retired.
which devices and what carriers?
Under NDA sorry. I'll give you a hint there were patents filed. Don't know
if they were granted.
NotMe
2014-03-17 16:39:29 UTC
Permalink
"nospam"
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
even the nsa can't turn on a phone remotely unless they specifically
modify the phone and somehow get you to use it.
What part of this 'function' was design requirement on the part of the
carriers did you not understand?

To be clear this is not supposition on my part as I was directly involved in
the R&D.
Keith
2014-03-17 17:17:43 UTC
Permalink
FWIW, I vaguely recall that the documentation for the 'locate my android'
app claimed it would locate it even if the phone was turned off. My phone,Huawei
G510, goes into 'deep sleep' when turned off UNLESS 'Fast boot' is turned
off. As a cynic, I could accept that, even after that action, it wouuld not
be 'off'. Just removing the battery could just work.


Hello NotMe,
Post by NotMe
"nospam"
Post by nospam
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
an ordinary phone *cannot* be remotely turned on. end of story.
Three letters -- NSA
even the nsa can't turn on a phone remotely unless they specifically
modify the phone and somehow get you to use it.
What part of this 'function' was design requirement on the part of the
carriers did you not understand?
To be clear this is not supposition on my part as I was directly
involved in the R&D.
tlvp
2014-04-05 17:15:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by NotMe
Short of removing the batter (not easily accomplished on some phones or
placing the phone in an RF protected package there is no way to prevent the
tracking.
Note that "removing the batter" is essential if you want to use that batter
to make any waffles, or pancakes :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
danny burstein
2014-04-05 17:26:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by tlvp
Post by NotMe
Short of removing the batter (not easily accomplished on some phones or
placing the phone in an RF protected package there is no way to prevent the
tracking.
Note that "removing the batter" is essential if you want to use that batter
to make any waffles, or pancakes :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
And in many baseball situations, removing the batter
is key to winning the game.
--
_____________________________________________________
Knowledge may be power, but communications is the key
***@panix.com
[to foil spammers, my address has been double rot-13 encoded]
tlvp
2014-04-05 23:55:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by danny burstein
Post by tlvp
Post by NotMe
Short of removing the batter (not easily accomplished on some phones or
placing the phone in an RF protected package there is no way to prevent the
tracking.
Note that "removing the batter" is essential if you want to use that batter
to make any waffles, or pancakes :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
And in many baseball situations, removing the batter
is key to winning the game.
Touché :-) ! Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
NotMe
2014-04-06 22:47:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by tlvp
Post by NotMe
Short of removing the batter (not easily accomplished on some phones or
placing the phone in an RF protected package there is no way to prevent the
tracking.
Note that "removing the batter" is essential if you want to use that batter
to make any waffles, or pancakes :-) . Cheers, -- tlvp
I have vision problem yet still manage make an effort to include thing that
keep spell checkers busy.
tlvp
2014-04-07 18:54:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by NotMe
...
...
...
I have vision problem yet still manage make an effort to include thing that
keep spell checkers busy.
And those efforts are much appreciated :-) : Thank you! Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.
nospam
2014-03-14 21:31:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by NotMe
Post by nospam
Post by Angelique Begnaud
This article implies a cell phone "pings" a satellite even when off
such that they can triangulate to you?
cellphones do not use satellites at all nor do they communicate with
the cellular network when off. off means off. end of story.
do not confuse off with standby. a phone in standby is connected to the
cellular network and can receive a call at any time (unless it moves
out of the cellular coverage area).
Post by Angelique Begnaud
Is this really true?
no.
Current phones use GPS satellites to passively determine position.
they use gps, cellular and wifi to determine position, depending on
what's available and how accurate of a position the app needs.

a weather app, for instance, only needs to know the city, not the
specific street corner, and a cellular signal would be more than
sufficient for that. on the other hand, a turn by turn navigation app
needs to know the precise location, otherwise it can't tell you where
to turn.
Post by NotMe
A somewhat phone and carrier specific as there are some phones that can be
activated when in the 'off' state by the carrier.
nonsense. phones that are off are *off*. that is what off means.

it is possible that a phone can have a custom firmware intentionally
put there by hackers or undercover cops, but that would be a one-time
thing done for a specific target.

if you're that target, you have *far* bigger problems to worry about
than the phone's firmware.

normal ordinary phones that people buy *cannot* be remotely turned on
from an off state.
Post by NotMe
The option/function goes back before smart phones came to the market.
nope.
Chris Uppal
2014-03-15 11:34:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by nospam
it is possible that a phone can have a custom firmware intentionally
put there by hackers or undercover cops, but that would be a one-time
thing done for a specific target.
Worth pointing out that:

(a) although this particular [mis]behaviour (turning on remotely) does require
custom firmware, other apparently similar abuses (turning on the mic or camera
of a device that's apparently on standby for instance), do not. And there's
quite a lot of malware out there. You can find estimates (by proper security
specialists) of the number of apps on Google play (etc) that contain malware.
I can't remember the numbers, so I can only guess at the number of devices that
actually contain some form of malware. (My guess is actually around 1%, but
that /is only/ a guess)

(b) a phone that can be turned on by any action that doesn't involve
re-connecting power to the thing (anything that can be turned on by pressing
and holding a button, say) isn't /really/ off -- there is some activity in some
part of the circuitry. As such, you can only trust that the manufacturer has
not (perhaps deliberately, but much more likely accidentally) left some sort of
backdoor in the system. Given, for example,. the recent alegations about
backdoors in various Samsung Galaxy models (Google it if you don't know
already), or the really appalling spate of revelations about various home/small
office routers, I don't think it's wise to assume that device manufacturers
/will/ avoid such accidents. (I hasten to add that the examples I mention are
of security cockups /in general/ not specifically the ability to turn an "off"
device on remotely).

The point I'm trying to make here is not so much about the specific action of
turning on a phone remotely (although I'd be suprised if there had never been
even one model shipped with that "capability"), as that with today's
super-complex hardware/software systems, it's a not good idea to assume that
the limits of what /seems/ possible are the limits of what's /actually/
possible...

-- chris
nospam
2014-03-15 18:12:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Uppal
Post by nospam
it is possible that a phone can have a custom firmware intentionally
put there by hackers or undercover cops, but that would be a one-time
thing done for a specific target.
(a) although this particular [mis]behaviour (turning on remotely) does require
custom firmware, other apparently similar abuses (turning on the mic or
camera of a device that's apparently on standby for instance), do not.
that's entirely different. when a phone is in standby, it's actually
on, especially with a smartphone that can run apps in the background.
Post by Chris Uppal
And there's
quite a lot of malware out there. You can find estimates (by proper security
specialists) of the number of apps on Google play (etc) that contain malware.
I can't remember the numbers, so I can only guess at the number of devices that
actually contain some form of malware. (My guess is actually around 1%, but
that /is only/ a guess)
there is a lot of malware on android.
Post by Chris Uppal
(b) a phone that can be turned on by any action that doesn't involve
re-connecting power to the thing (anything that can be turned on by pressing
and holding a button, say) isn't /really/ off -- there is some activity in some
part of the circuitry.
the power manager looks for a button press or a charge plugging event.
that's all it does.

the radios remain *off* until the phone is powered on.
Bert
2014-03-14 16:38:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Angelique Begnaud
Is this really true?
No.

If you're still worried, just take the battery out. Be sure to get the
secret, hidden battery that's under the LCD.
--
***@iphouse.com St. Paul, MN
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